Are your beverage taps IoT-connected? If not, they should be.

In this conversation, Dominic speaks with Ben Maphis, Vice President of Engineering at Sestra Systems, about the company’s journey to meet a gaping need in the market. Listen in as Ben shares his experiences with enabling IoT-connected beverage tap solutions, as well as innovating, scaling growth, and gaining expertise across a variety of steps along the value chain.

About Ben: 

Ben Maphis is a technology leader with success orchestrating hardware and software to deliver advanced IoT solutions across industries. He provides solutions to drive measurable outcomes across consultative, security, service provider, and product development organizations and built a delivery organization from start up – establishing business, marketing, product, team talent, and operational support systems.
Learn more about Sestra Systems at https://www.sestrasystems.com/

About Dominic:  

Dominic Marcellino is the director of strategy and business development at Kajeet. In this role, Dominic is responsible for expanding and strengthening Kajeet’s partnerships with system integrators, device manufacturers and solution providers, leading strategy for product and sales teams and refining customer experience. An expert in product, business development and sales with extensive expertise in bringing low-power IoT applications to market, Dominic’s strategic guidance strengthens Kajeet’s market position as a premier mobile virtual network operator for global enterprises.

About Kajeet:  

Kajeet is a managed IoT connectivity provider working to enable connections for good. Founded in 2003, the company provides optimized IoT connectivity, software and hardware solutions that deliver safe, reliable, and controlled internet connectivity to nearly 3,000 businesses, schools and districts, state and local governments, and IoT solution providers. Kajeet is the only managed IoT connectivity services provider in the industry to offer a scalable IoT management platform, Sentinel®, that includes complete visibility into real-time data usage, policy control management, custom content filters for added security and multi-network flexibility. Whether to enable digital access that ensures student success, empower companies to connect and control devices in the field, or offer support and a platform to launch a complex mobile solution, Kajeet is trusted by many to make powerful and flexible wireless solutions easy. Kajeet is available for hybrid and multi-network access across all major North American wireless networks, globally in 168 other countries, and on multiple licensed and unlicensed networks. Kajeet holds 39 U.S. patents in mobile technologies. To learn more, visit kajeet.com and follow us on Twitter.

Transcript:

0:00:00.0 Ben: The bartender may not like that they lose control over how much they’re pouring, but once they see the speed of service and the throughput that they can get, like I said, it just takes a little time, but we’ve never had a case where we haven’t won over that layer. And then once you have a concessionaire that can see their food and beverage programs or beverage programs, specifically, across multiple venues and make decisions about what inventory that they are going to purchase for that venue, it becomes really easily compelling.

[music]

0:00:44.1 Dominic: Hello and welcome to the But Did It Work podcast. This is Dominic Marcellino from Kajeet. I am delighted to welcome Ben Maphis, the VP of Engineering from Sestra Systems. Ben, thanks for being here today.

0:00:57.9 Ben: Hey, it’s great to be here, thanks so much.

0:01:00.0 Dominic: Absolutely. We’re delighted to have you because not only do you have a really cool company and product to talk about, but we are partners and we’d like to use this podcast as a way of highlighting the cool things that our partners are doing out there in the world of IoT. So Ben, Sestra Systems was founded in 2015. Talk a little bit about what brought you to the company before we get into the founding idea that you’ve been implementing over these last seven years.

0:01:27.7 Ben: Yeah, of course. So I had spent the majority of my career in different forms of technical solution development and grew into… Found a path in security and compliance-driven industries for quite a number of years and that led me into… Actually, in some ways, made me want to shift a little bit and go into a consumer-driven product or a direct consumer product and that led me into IoT, different forms of Internet of Things products that combine hardware and software to create value, in this one case, for a consumer. And then as I made my way and found my way into Sestra, it’s interesting… It’s the same, but very different in terms of where the value proposition lies in terms of who we’re serving. So early on, compliance and security, and I think that’ll be something I’ll come back to later in our conversation.

0:02:23.7 Dominic: Sure.

0:02:24.2 Ben: I think is kind of interesting in our industry, and… The idea of taking a product company that has a hardware aspect that people interact with, and then a software component that they also interact with and that combined creates bigger value for the industry and our company is really interesting to me.

0:02:44.7 Dominic: Yeah, absolutely. I think that it is something that I didn’t appreciate before I got into the IoT world, the extent to which there is a tremendous amount of compliance, legal regulatory, even driven by things like the carriers that can have a major impact on actually getting to market where the original idea is one thing and then there are these barriers that come into play that you have to overcome and having a background like you have is certainly helpful. Well, so then talk a little bit about how the concept of Sestra came together and if you can, to the extent that you know it like… The original idea tends to never be kind of how things exactly worked out and tracing that pathway should be a pretty interesting conversation we can have over the next bit of time.

0:03:32.3 Ben: Yeah, it is kind of interesting. At our core, we’re problem-solvers and the founders of the company are problem-solvers. And so very early on, we were providing wine distribution to different stadiums and those stadiums had a problem, and the problem was loss and wastage and spoilage and essentially, that equates to lost revenue, and so being problem-solvers, that led us into the creation of… Or the formulation of our first solutions. How do we solve those problems? And then that grows into controlling, so let’s put some controls on top of that and that grows into… And now we have insights into what’s being poured and how much and by whom, and then that allows us to forecast further up the value chain, if you will, for what types of beverages should be getting poured and to provide some of that forecasting and insights, and so really it was problem-solving. And another way to state that problem is there is an industry standard, unfortunately, that has allowed us in this market and that is, you order pallets of your beverage. It doesn’t have to be wine or alcoholic. In our case, we dispense all kinds of different beverages, but…

0:04:49.5 Dominic: Sure.

0:04:50.0 Ben: In the case of your alcohol beverages, the margins are so high there, right? It’s an easy conversation. And so what the gap is, is that you order pallets of your wine and they hit your dock, and then what happens to that as it goes into the cup. And think about any size company, whether that’d be restaurants to large volume pouring stadiums or theaters, right? That gap, providing insights into what’s actually happening from the dock to the cup is a big part of our solution. So now at this point, that has taken off for us. We really think of ourselves as dispensing as a service, and so we do all kinds of things in addition to just pouring beverages, and I’ll talk about that in a little bit as well. But we’re in 40 States, Canada. We are on three cruise lines now, major cruise lines, so lots of places.

0:05:45.0 Dominic: Yeah, absolutely, and certainly you identified a couple of things in there that are likely the result of humans in the loop, whether intentional or not, not necessarily being able to consistently provide the exact same outcome in every single case when somebody’s ordering a beverage. Were there any kind of technical process or even just collaboration with your customers stories that…

0:06:14.0 Dominic: Can help us understand, kind of that… You know that evolution that you described from being a wine dispenser to becoming… Beverage as a service provider, there was a lot of steps in between there, but maybe highlighting some of the unexpected things that came up that were interesting twists on what you needed to be able to implement in order to provide the services that you’re providing today.

0:06:38.4 Ben: Yeah, a couple of things come to mind. There’s a big change management problem, it’s the first thing that comes to mind that is our customers to their industry partners, there’s a precedent for… Things have always been done this way, and that’s the way that they should be. And so there is a resistance from, especially in front of the house type of operations that took time for us to prove, and that’s why earlier adopters and anchor customers, if you will, are super important to a company like ours. So that change management problem. That’s a little organically solving itself as we get a little more established in the industry and as we grow across different verticals, the other thing was technically… You know, we’re innovators and we’re inventing and we’re…

0:07:26.9 Ben: We’re figuring out the most supportable, maintainable, and accurate ways to provide those controls and insights and the actual beverage dispensing, and so one of our differentiators that were true, truly dispensing based on volumetric dispensing versus just monitoring what’s being poured. And so that took a number of cycles in R&D to get to the point where… Where that was productized, and then related to change management a bit, the business side of the hospitality is just very, very relationship-driven, and so as I mentioned early adopters are very important to help us establishing some… Some organic growth, but it’s taken us some time to really… Grow those relationships across the concept of a customer, which can be a little bit convoluted in hospitality…

0:08:16.0 Dominic: Sure.

0:08:18.1 Ben: Hospitality world.

0:08:19.1 Dominic: Yeah, digging a little bit more with the… With the customers and… And the… The feedback loop between those early adopters, the customers that you’re basically partnering with to kind of figure out how to create a solution that you can build and that they want to use and… And results in some value that they… That they can clearly identify… Were there any kind of really unexpected inputs from those customers that… That both helped you recognize what the real problems were that they faced and how to… And how you guys went about solving… Kind of those… Those problems that they had identified?

0:08:52.9 Ben: Yeah, I mean, you’re exactly right. It’s a partnership, and that feedback loop has to be… Very strong and you grow together and you have to learn to trust each other as in… As in any relationship. And so… One of the things that we found along the way is we weren’t really just doing beverage dispensing, we were really solution consultants, and solution consultants across with having expertise across lots of different disciplines, not just a technology one, but for example, industrial design, how does it look, how do your customers want to interact with it. We had to become things like understanding all of the ins and outs of balancing beer lines, to simulating to management across what’s your throughput of your guests for other stadium, for example, and how many taps do you need at a given location, and so part of… Part of that partnership helped us to gain that expertise, that allows us to then provide solutions to other… Other industries as well, and so… That’s part of it. Along the way, we had to… We have a hard work component, that’s efficient, we had to become supply chain managers, right, and deal with global supply chain issues. And… But… But again, …we are technologists, we’re innovators, we had to gain some expertise along the way, and those partnerships and those values of those partnerships are still part of core tenents for us, really.

0:10:16.2 Dominic: Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned supply chain expertise as well as industrial design, were there… Were there any of those sort of businesses behind the business that you… That you’ve become really good at in order to deliver your solution that was completely unexpected, you’re like, “Oh man, we actually also had to get really good at wine.” And you mentioned a few other things like how to… How to [0:10:38.4] ____ are they supposed to work in a given scenario, and what’s a good… What’s a good throughput, what’s, a troubling throughput, how to… When do people start getting out of line, which is what you don’t want to see… Yeah. Any… Any… Anything… Anything there that’s useful to share…

0:10:53.9 Ben: Yeah, I mean, within the having to learn and gain expertise across those different areas, we had to really understand… Going back to that point on dock to the cup, we had to really understand inventory and inventory control management within our customers organizations, even though we were just doing the… You can say we’re just doing the dispensing pieces of that, we really had to understand the inventory and how they manage it all the way through the labor components of their operations, and so we found ourselves doing that, we found ourselves having to be general contractors in some cases. [chuckle]

0:11:30.0 Ben: We are the face because of what our solution does, whether… We’re not the beer supplier, but if the beer is not pouring, then we are the face, so from a customer support perspective, all the way through understanding the ins and outs of operations, that’s… That part of hospitality is something that we really bolstered as part of our solution, being solution consultants, but ultimately to drive dispensing, our dispensing, core dispensing as a service, a business, and of course, we have lots of stories about little technology gains and layers that we had to layer on and different… Pieces and parts, and the solutions that we had to put together to dispense different kinds of beverages, for example, we moved into doing some condiment dispensing in addition to wine and beer and lotions and all those types of things. So those use cases pose some technical challenges as well.

0:12:26.4 Dominic: Yeah, absolutely. Maybe a little bit more on the acceptance criteria. Or not even acceptance criteria, introducing new products that change processes seem to always meet the biggest resistance with the people who had nothing to do with making a decision to change, but are the ones that actually have to change what they’re doing in order for it to work. So the end line pour of beverages, or the person that’s interfacing with customers, almost certainly wasn’t the one that was working with you except maybe after it’d already been decided you’re gonna work together that chose to engage in a process, a change management process. And how have you seen your effectiveness in helping to articulate those changes in a way to those groups of people that helped bring them in to some of the decisions that were being made about how to implement it or how to improve it, and to gain them as advocates of the outcome?

0:13:18.7 Ben: Well, and you’re exactly right. And it ultimately comes back to understanding how folks are incented and how they’re motivated, right? And if you think about a solution like ours, it touches the bartenders, it touches the end guests, and it touches all the… And you work your way up the chain. It affects the venue management, it affects the concessionaire that’s running food and beverage for an entire set of venues, and all the way up through the beverage manufacturers themself. And so you have to think about what are their incentives at each of those levels, and then apply how your solution is addressing at each of those levels.

0:13:58.1 Ben: So for example, the bartender may not like that they lose control over how much they’re pouring, but once they see the speed of service and the throughput that they can get, like I said, it just takes a little time, but we’ve never had a case where we haven’t won over that layer. And then once you have a concessionaire that can see their food and beverage programs, or beverage programs specifically, across multiple venues and make decisions about what inventory that they are going to purchase for that venue, it becomes really easily compelling. And so we build our applications and our mobile apps and our features and our insights targeted to each of those different layers.

0:14:41.3 Dominic: Got it. That’s really fascinating. Certainly, yeah, understanding the incentives and being able to show that it’s meeting those as opposed to working across purposes…

0:14:49.1 Ben: Exactly.

0:14:50.5 Dominic: Really did help over time, but it’s definitely a tough conversation to have. I was curious about the role that connectivity plays in you delivering your solutions, and how that has played a role in the approaches that you’ve taken and the types of customers that you can serve, and where you’ve seen both challenges and successes.

0:15:16.5 Ben: Yeah, of course. And so being connected, having taps that are essentially connected and controlled, the “Connected” part of that’s imperative, and as we move into extending those connected controls to different industries or scenarios like self-service, and kiosks, and point of sales, and things like that, it’s even more compounded. And so we found that we’ve had to grow a bit in terms of controlling the variables that we can control and going into all kinds of outdoor and indoor venues, large and small. Whether they be performing arts theatres, in a basement, to a cruise ship, to a stadium or arenas, the environments are very much different. So what are parts of that that we can control and augment our solutions? And connectivity is part of that, and so we’ve looked to LTE Solutions through folks like Kajeet and our partnership, and have a number of different solutions now that allow us to control the source of the connectivity itself versus purely relying on what a customer venue or environment might be providing us, which can be unstable at best.

0:16:26.9 Dominic: Absolutely, and then just like some of the other things that you’re responsible for, even though you’re kind of not when it’s not connected, even if it’s the customer’s network, it’s your product isn’t being able to be used and so somehow it’s your problem.

0:16:39.8 Ben: It’s all our fault. Yeah, exactly. [chuckle]

0:16:42.7 Dominic: That’s right, that’s right. Well, now it’s our fault apparently, so hopefully we can help you in that when it comes to a problem. You mentioned several different areas that you now are active in that clearly weren’t part of the original problem set that you were trying to solve, but they’re kind of iterations on the theme. A lot of success in start-up and launching new companies and products is being flexible and pivoting where not only opportunity lies, but also where you see something that you thought you were gonna be able to do to respond to a problem just didn’t work, where there’s not product/market fit. Any kind of lessons of pivoting, either successfully because you have a new opportunity or where something didn’t work the way that you thought it would and you were able to move on from that, that might be interesting to share?

0:17:30.9 Ben: So we did a couple of things in the last two years to address kind of a new market for all of us, really. We moved into… And it wasn’t so much a pivot as it was just accelerating what we were already planning to do in some ways. And so since we control the taps and since we have everything, there’s no handle to pull in our solution. For beer taps for example, there’s a button. That gives us all kinds of options. Well, why does it have to be a button? It could be on your phone, it could be a wave of your hand, and touch-less solutions became a really big deal very quickly for obvious reasons.

0:18:05.5 Ben: And so we quickly accelerated and did a lot with that, and then we moved into non-alcohol-based products where our customers were saying, “Well, I have these high-touch environments,” think about a condiment stand at a stadium and all the things that go along with that. “Well, Sestra, how can you be a problem-solver and help me solve that?” And so we moved into doing touch-less condiment dispensing with all the controls and values that we have. That’s one example, and then we also, looking at labor problems that we’ve had, especially across the hospitality industry we…

0:18:43.0 Ben: We moved or accelerated into how do we help to solve some of these labor problems, and how do we bring new revenue opportunities into areas like a hotel lobby, or at a small hotel where they don’t have revenue opportunities. And so our solutions lended themselves very easily into areas where we could put a complete self-service kiosk and allow hotel lobby guests to get a beer, a wine, or a coffee or cold brew or what have you. So that gives an amenity to the hotel, but it also gives them… That they can offer their guests rather, but that also gives them a new revenue stream. So we’ve seen a lot of… We accelerated quickly into that over the last few years, and we’ve seen a lot of interest.

0:19:27.0 Dominic: Yeah, for sure. One of the fascinating things that I didn’t appreciate until I was part of selling a product into the hospitality industry a few years ago, is the extent to which the name brand on the front of the hotel doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re the people you would work with in order to actually put your products into the environment. How do you handle the franchise and large-scale property ownership groups, and basically how have you sold into the hospitality space across the brand names and the people that own most of the hotels as well as the individual franchise owners? How have you navigated that environment?

0:20:04.6 Ben: Yeah, it’s super hard and takes a while, but it goes back to those relationships and partnerships, and having solid foundational early adopters that you can grow with. And we have grown with our customers as they’ve grown in terms of their purview for what they’re managing, and they will move to different areas. And of course, you have to have 100% have the right product and service to back all of those, all of that. But as our partners organically grow in their lives and their careers and across different industries, that allows us to grow with them.

0:20:43.2 Ben: So yeah, it really goes back to, one, you have to provide a solution that is a little different than what they’re used to. And actually, I should mention that one of our core tenets of our solution is, and I think a differentiator, is really the service part of our dispensing as a service. And so if you think about a typical vendor relationship in the hospitality industry, you buy a piece of hardware, maybe there’s a warranty or a support plan that goes along with that, but for us, we want to be true partners. Your success is directly combined with our success. And so the service model that we’re offering to our customers is unlike anything that is expected in the hospitality, and I think that has really bolstered our ability to grow as our partners grow throughout their careers as well.

0:21:37.1 Dominic: Yeah, that’s great. That’s a really cool story. If you think about when you started with Sestra and maybe somebody white-boarded, “We’re gonna be doing this, Ben. And you’re gonna help us build this,” and where you are today, and obviously you’re doing more than that, but just that core vision from the beginning. Roughly, in percentage terms, how close is where you are today from what that original vision is? Are you 5% there, 80%, 100%? How does that look if you had to kinda guess?

0:22:08.8 Ben: Yeah. We are really true to our core model, I would say. Just off the cuff, I would say we’re 90% true to what we started with, and that is maximizing revenue through loss prevention, creating operational efficiencies, giving controls and insights into beverage program. And I say 90% because there’s a big upside to the remaining 10%, which I alluded to a moment ago, and that’s bringing new revenue opportunities without carrying direct labor responsibilities into areas that don’t exist, didn’t exist before, so I think that’s a big upside for us.

0:22:53.9 Dominic: Absolutely, and that has to be driven by knowledge of the industry and consultation with customers as the concept was being conceived because in order to do that, you have to have had and ended up with really great product/market fit. Do you have any stories before joining Sestra where you started with something that just didn’t have that? It’s so essential to end up with product/market fit, but to have started with it is a really cool thing. And to say that 10% is really more as opposed to big changes. Do you have any stories from your prior Sestra or your pre-Sestra times where that’s been pretty different?

0:23:38.3 Ben: Yeah. And in the context of creating a hardware and software IoT solution that is something that a consumer is directly buying versus something that a business is directly buying, you’re, again, going back to how much does a company have to invest to establish the market that they’re in? And if you think about any of the really good ideas that you might think of, they seem really, really obvious. Usually the best ideas are really, really obvious. And I think if I look back at past failed experiments, it was obvious when we talked about it, but when our customers talked about it, the end customers, it wasn’t obvious to them. And that is a gap that was really hard to close, and I would say something that we’re doing here in Sestra Systems and in the market where it’s really easy for us to articulate the value, and it is also really easy for our customers to articulate the value. And so I think it is very obvious, and that’s what I’m excited about.

0:24:44.2 Dominic: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. When you think about the next 12 months, because you alluded to the fact that you pulled in a lot of development over the last two years that you might have been doing now instead, what’s getting the Sestra Systems team excited about what’s coming next? Obviously, you have a lot of execution. You’re introducing new products to new opportunities, but certainly you’re not standing still, so what’s kind of… That you can talk about, what’s coming? What’s coming next that you’re excited about?

0:25:11.9 Ben: Yeah. There’s been a big shift in, I think, culturally in how we’re approaching customers and more importantly how customers are approaching us and industries are approaching us. We’re being sought after for our solutions more so than us going to them. And so, early on, it may have been the value proposition was kind of a hardware-focused thing. We’re doing… We’re loss prevention and controls and so forth, that was a big draw in the early days, and now we are seen as technology consultants for beverage programs across lots of layers that I’ve mentioned in our talk here. And so that’s a huge upside and it’s very exciting.

0:25:52.1 Ben: We have so many partnerships that we’re working on that are purely not partners in terms of customers, but partners in terms of extending our value proposition through things like doing biometric age verifications. We could do a biometric age verification with a partner company, and that would allow… That further removes any of the labor requirements, and also augments some of the security compliance concerns across hotels, for example. But you think about it, you could have a fully autonomous security, secure and compliant self-service revenue-generating solution in your lobby, so that’s super exciting. I mentioned inventory partnerships, really anything in the value chain of beverage, all the way through the production of the beverage itself, our partnerships that we’re actively engaged in and looking to augment our platform. So super interesting and exciting, I think.

0:26:52.1 Dominic: Absolutely, absolutely. Be that as it may, there have to be some specific challenges that you know are gonna be harder to solve than others, and sometimes overcoming the hard challenges are actually the most rewarding things, but if you could get away with using a magic wand to get one well-defined challenge out of your pathway over the next 12, 24 months, is there anything you would say, “Man, I wish I could just do… I could just wave my hands and it would go away.”

[laughter]

0:27:22.4 Ben: Well, we see and our customers see are the… Take a hotel franchise, we all see such value to some of the topics that I’ve mentioned already with self-service and the revenue and the loss prevention and the simplification of operations, that it’s a very clear, no-brainer, I think just like any big company who is security compliance-driven, there are brands to protect, there are franchise models and standards that have to be managed. And so the process to go from… To take something that is completely obvious to us as a provider, and then the consumer as the end customer, we still have to navigate that, and that takes longer than I want, right?

0:28:09.0 Ben: It takes longer than we want. And in the context of… Well, these are also solutions that would really help a struggling business or industry over the couple of years. That could be frustrating at times but it’s there for the right reasons. So I think it’s on us to continue that organic… Really press for that organic growth in those partnerships and keep proving day-to-day, and then some of that takes care of itself, I think. But yeah, if I could wave a wand, of course, that’s probably what everybody would say.

[laughter]

0:28:41.9 Dominic: Sure. But at least it doesn’t have to be a brand new technological innovation for something that’s never been solved before. Those are certainly fun from an engineer’s point of view, but you don’t necessarily know you can get there where this is just time and effort should get you where you need to go, which is okay.

0:29:00.5 Ben: Yep.

0:29:00.6 Dominic: Let’s just say, to close things out, that you had to go join or start a different IoT company, anything that you would be excited to go do, and what would that potentially look like?

0:29:13.1 Ben: Well, what’s interesting to me, IoT is such a broad umbrella term. Of course, sometimes I feel like it’s meaningless without having context. And so it doesn’t describe a specific thing anymore.

0:29:26.3 Dominic: Yeah.

0:29:26.5 Ben: Is what I kinda find interesting is that the line between… You hear the term edge computing or edge devices and you’re to IoT… To me, those lines are really, really blurred in what they’re doing. And in fact, a lot of what Sestra is doing is it’s providing edge solutions in our connected tap and so forth. But having said all of that, I think I would take a totally different approach and not necessarily go do a new IoT thing.

0:29:54.8 Dominic: Yeah.

0:29:54.9 Ben: I would look at a way to augment the industry of these IoT edge things, meaning, there’s a… I found as because we’ve had to painfully grow and build these tools ourselves, there’s really not a great platform that allows you to combine all the different IoT and edge device things that are providing value at an installation or providing value with insights and allows you to manage them, manage the technology, the individual devices, and the sensors, and all the upgrades, and the fleet management, things that go along with it. There’s not a great solution. There are really good solutions in my view, that are a little bit too enclosed in their own worlds, and so I would focus on some type of service that would help across all kinds of different IoT things.

0:30:47.3 Dominic: Yeah.

0:30:48.2 Ben: So yeah, that’s what I’m gonna do.

[laughter]

0:30:53.0 Dominic: It’s an appealing vision and I’ve been taking product notes for our own team there for sure. Any last words about the industry, about Sestra, about your work that you’d wanna leave our listeners with?

0:31:07.6 Ben: Well, I think it’s interesting… Of course, we think it’s interesting what we are doing, but I think I would encourage listeners to take a look at what the hospitality industry… Again, that could be hotels, the cruise lines or theaters, and if you really think through what goes in to all the different vendors and all the different people that are involved rather, and just your ability to go get a drink at a bar and take a moment and think about the different layers and the complexities there, and then see if you can come up with your own, “Aha, this is obvious moment.” We think we have that “Aha, this is obvious solution.” But yeah, that’s what I would say.

0:31:52.0 Dominic: Awesome. Well Ben, thanks very much for joining me today. You’ve been really helpful in describing the story of Sestra and helping us understand a little bit more about how you’ve been successful and where you’re headed. It’s an exciting story and looking forward to working with you on realizing that vision.

0:32:07.8 Ben: Yeah, thanks so much. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here.

0:32:10.6 Dominic: Alright. Thanks. Bye.

0:32:13.6 Ben: Thanks. Bye-bye.